General Discussion Forum

As Dave And Bubba 177 stated, Its not the power but the displacment that the AMA let the 450 get to. Not the waight, Not the EPA, Not the manufactuars! Let the 2 stroke put out the same DISPLACMENT as the 4 stroke. And you will see riders bailing off the 4 stroke wagon quicker then you can say ring ding! The 2 stroke 250 is the real deal. And Made for MX only. They changed the rule to let the 450 compeat, So if they ever let the 2 JUST BE EVEN, in displacment then the 2 would rule again. I hope that whitlock gets it to 350cc 4 stroke. Then lets see what a (250cc) 2 stroke will do to it! Well, I din't post this to become a 2/4 bash fest, And glad to see that all post are informitive and resonable on both sides of the issue. I'v rode both, And think that both have there roll in this sport. On the track and on the trail. YZ WOODS.  

There's a story in cycle world magazine(July 07) about the AMA.It's mostly about roadracing and dirt track racing but holds true to supercross/motocross series as well.The AMA does a good job of collecting membership dues and amateur racing but has no clear rules or direction for the growth and well being of our sport.
Doug Henry won a motocross title aboard that YZ400f in it's second year (If I remember correctly) Why wasn't the displacement limit made at 400 then?
Why change the fuel requirements for two stokes when they needed all the help they (2 strokes) could get to stay competitive?
IMO it is all about the money, everyone buys a new bike because so much is written and said about how great they are, how much faster they are when 90% of people couldn't ride a 125 2 stroke to it's limit.The cost of riding/racing just went up big time and it's got nothing to do with what is good for the sport or environment, it's all about the cold hard cash, yours and mine.
My 2 cents.  
It ain't fast without mixed gas.

Don't get me wrong; I think the 450F's are neat.  If I could afford it I'd have one to go along with my 250 2-stroke.  I just don't like "having" to buy one.

One things thats still not better on the 4-stroke is the initial price and up-keep costs (if you do it as often as recommended).

So again, not bashing 4-strokes; just bashing AMA and current rules (and proposed rules)    
Dave H 2006 YZ250
(2008 YZ 125 son)

Thank you Dave. Im not bashing the4 stroke. Just stating the facts! My 200 4stroke was the best! But not a MX BIKE!  

The AMA needs to be revamped! I bet if Jody was calling the shots at the AMA we would not be having the age old 2 stroke vs 4 stroke debates! But, on the other hand, the mfg are selling a whole lot of parts for the 4 strokes. More pats sales = more $$$  

Good to hear from you goon. You been on hiatis? Anyway, Its all about the doller at this point, In parts and sales. And the AMA kicked the regular joe rider rite in the go-nads!  

Well, its good to see all of you who have posted in this topic are passionate about 2 strokes...as am I, but I think you are all missing the point either way.  

Coincidence is God's way of remaining anonymous.

And what (point) would that be? It's been stated CLEARLY that the two stroke is a better all around bike for reasons stated. And welcome your opinion . Now you just have to come up with some facts....And pin it, You know i always listen to your opinion. I respect your opinion,What are we missing?  

I also respect yours too.

My point is...the 2 stroke and 4 stroke engine are very different, duh. But, its obvious that 2 strokes do make more per CC. However, they do not weigh less, the fact that you guys have been saying they weigh less is wrong. If we compare equal CC, then yes, they weigh the same.

Now, since they do not have the same power output per CC, the AMA, and EPA..YES EPA, want to promote 4 strokes. The AMA did make the attempt to help get 4 strokes into the picture. They did a fenaminal job, and I am glad of it. But does that make it unfair? Not at all. Think of it this way, for how long have 4 stroke guys been saying...all MX is 2 strokes, and now that manufactures finally make 4 strokes possable for MX, and faster than a 2 stroke, we don't like it?!

I know CC sizes have been blown out of proportion, but this is how I see it. Awhile back, the dirtbike world knew nothing of a 50 plus horse 230 lb 4 stroke MX bike. It was more like a crappy suspended, 300 plus pound 40 HP torque monster. So the AMA did give the 4 strokes a chance knowingly that 2 strokes were much harsher for the environment. So the AMA set the limits for what WAS fair....Now that we know what is fair, and we know that it has been blown out of proportion, however, it would not make sense at all for all the manufactures to downsize and spend millions of dollors in making the 450's into 400's, and 250f's into 225's. Then comes in the EPA's regulations on trying to mum out the 2 strokes, and that right there is what makes all the manufactures say screw putting millions of dollors into making 2 strokes competitive if they are going to be banned.

Also, putting 250 2 strokes with 250f's would be doing the same thing that 450's do to 250 2 t's...so how would that resolve anything...the roles would just be reversed and contriversy would reign.  

Coincidence is God's way of remaining anonymous.

Well put!  

With all that said, I want a 2 stroke class also! I love 2 strokes and I have been spending alot of time on a buddies YZ125, and I absolutly love the 2 stroke feel and lightness. I just was counter-arguing this conversation...just food for thought.

Long live the 2 stroke!  

Coincidence is God's way of remaining anonymous.

My only disagreement is on weight.  A 250F motor weighs more than a 250 2-stroke motor.  The 250F bike as a whole weighs about the same as a 250 2-stroke because it has 125 2-stroke size components (which is OK as it puts out about what a 125 2-stroke does with added torque).

Put the 250F motor in a 2-stroke size chassis (450F) and you have a weight issue again.

Other than that I agree.  
Dave H 2006 YZ250
(2008 YZ 125 son)

I'd have to disagree with ya on the weights of the motor DL. The chassis are so similar between 125 frame and 250 frame that the difference in weight can really only be contributed to the motor. All of the big ticket items are identical, forks, wheels, hubs, brakes, swingarm, and shock. I'll give you maybe 3lbs differnce for larger radiators and slight alterations to the frame such as gusseting.  

DLHamblin:
My only disagreement is on weight.  A 250F motor weighs more than a 250 2-stroke motor.  The 250F bike as a whole weighs about the same as a 250 2-stroke because it has 125 2-stroke size components (which is OK as it puts out about what a 125 2-stroke does with added torque).

Put the 250F motor in a 2-stroke size chassis (450F) and you have a weight issue again.

Other than that I agree.

With all due respect DLH, you are incorrect. It may seem that with all those moving parts, the bike will weigh more, but the motor in actuality weighs less...yes less. Take comparison in the March 2005 Issue or DR where they did the 125 vs 250f vs 250 vs 450. Granted they don't have every bike in their for comparison, but they do have the KX250 and CRF250f. The CRF's engine alone is 1 lb lighter. Then, the pipes on all the 4 strokes are lighter by a few pounds. All the 4 strokes now use Ti headers and superlight weight mufflers, not so with 2 strokes. On average, a 4 stroke will save about 2 pounds on exhaust alone.

As for overall weight, a 250f weighs less than any 250 2 stroke (besides 250SX) in this case the KX250F vs the the KX250, the 250f is 4 lbs lighter, and in Yamaha's case, the YZ250f is 3 lbs lighter than the yz250.  

Coincidence is God's way of remaining anonymous.

this is true, but, if they really wanted to, they could make the 250 two stroke lighter, they just dont put in the effort. the KX250 isnt a good comparison against the kx250f because the KX250 sucks and has a horrible frame as is. a good comparison woule be the yz250 vs. 250f, the rm250 vsrmz250, or the sx250 vs sxf250. all of these bikes are advanced while the KX250 is stuck in a time warp from a few years back vs the modern 250f.  
2005 YZ250F
2006 RM250
Tragedy and hardship are the forge that produce men of steel